Author Topic: The Keeb Thread  (Read 245 times)

Spectere

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The Keeb Thread
« on: June 14, 2020, 06:23:29 PM »
Post your keyboard here!

Here's the board I'm currently using for my main PC (click to enlarge, as always):



It's a GMMK TKL with 67g Purple Zealio V2 switches and Drop + Matt3o /dev/tty keycaps.

I love almost everything about this thing. The keycaps have a spherical cut rather than a cylindrical one, so they almost cradle your fingertips while you type. F and J use a deeper groove instead of a nub or other marker, so it's just as easy to tell if your fingers are in the home position. Beyond that, they're thick PBT caps, so the texture is going to last a long time (my vintage 1989 Model M's keycaps still have their texture!) and they're noticeably quieter than the stock Pudding caps that the GMMK comes with.

The Zealios have a nice and heavy tactile bump, somewhat like a crisper MX Clear, with the actuation point immediately after the bump. This is a pretty big improvement over the Kailh Box Browns I ordered with the keyboard, which have an actuation point that's roughly 0.5mm below the bump.

I have a bunch of Holy Pandas on order as well, so we'll see how they compare. I often see the Zealio V2 compared with those switches, so I'm eager to compare them side by side.

As for the "almost" bit, the main points of criticism that I have is that everything about the way that the GMMK's company markets everything is beyond cringe. For one, the keyboard is called the "Glorious Modular Mechanical Keyboard," and the company's entire image is based on Yahtzee's "PC master race" joke. Yes. There's seriously a company whose entire schtick is based on r/pcmasterrace. I hate it.

The second downside is that the software is Windows only and is kinda crap. Their macro support is as basic as it gets, with you simply being able to just redefine keys, with no option of being able to use Fn+X chords to trigger macros (uhhh, why not just use AutoHotKey at that point?). I can't imagine their compact keyboards even being usable, seeing as they don't even offer customizable layers. Naturally, their controller doesn't support QMK or other open source firmware, so you're stuck with what you get.

That said, the build quality is nice, and the Kailh hotswap sockets have proven to be very nice indeed.
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vladgd

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2020, 08:14:31 PM »


Memorex ps/2 keyboard, that I bought from SAM GOODY IN 2002 for $13usd.

I used that fucker up until July 2019...might not be pretty, but it got the job done. Every single key that I would have used for stepmania is worn off into blank keys, and still works great.



Excuse the ghetto "temporarily moved into my parents basement until I find a new place because 5 year relationship ended and she was staying in the house" setup. But after I built my pc last year, and I have converted to a lounge in a recliner pc setup to alleviate back pain, I wanted a mechanical tkl keyboard. I like the numpad, but it's a bit much for a lap setup.

Corsair K63


Looking into microswitches, cherry browns seemed the most attractive, but this thing was only $50...and I didn't want to spend a lot of money having just dumped on a new pc and 32 inch monitor. This thing has cherry reds, and they took a few months to adjust to (and after almost 20 years on that cheap memorex keyboard, I couldn't really type on anything else), but now that I have, I ain't so sure tactile feedback would be something I'd want anyway. Can't really know until I type on one for a few weeks, but this thing is doing me well for my basic needs anyway. Small note, my keyboard, psu, case, and ram is corsair...coincidence or am I secretly a corsair fanboy?

tl;dr KEYBOARD WORKS GUD, LOOKS UGLY BUT WAS CHEAP

Spectere

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2020, 10:46:47 AM »
The unfortunate part about microswitches is that you never really know which ones are meant for you until you've tried a whole bunch of them. Key testers can only do so much, as the backing plate makes a huge difference in tactile response, not to mention the key caps, as well as the fact that poking at a single key is a lot different than actually typing. A keyboard like mine, with swappable switches, is nice for stuff like that, but you still have to pull every. single. switch and replace them with the ones you want to try. A little time consuming, but it beats desoldering and resoldering. ;D

I haven't used them too much, but Corsair keyboards seem to be pretty solid. My dad was using a K70 with MX Blues for a while, so I got to play around with it a bit. I'm not sure how the plastic Corsairs feel, but the K70 felt a lot more solid than the Logitech mechs I've owned. They seem to be pretty reliable, too.

One thing I'd consider with your setup is picking up a lap desk. I've been using that particular model for about a month and it's done a pretty great job keeping my keyboard from flopping all over the place. If I offset the keyboard to the right it also centers the alphanumeric keys, which makes typing super comfortable for long stretches of time. It's not large enough to hold a mouse (though my MX Ergo trackball will sort of fit on it if I shuffle things around), but my recliner has a little tray that I use for that.



As a little added bonus, here's a list of the mechanical switches I've used, in order of preference:
  • 67g Purple Zealio V2, on a GMMK (quiet, tactile) - Very crisp, with a prominent, yet smooth, bump. This is how I wanted the MX Clears to feel.
  • Buckling Spring, on two 80s IBM Model M (LOUD, tactile) - By far my favorite clicky switches. They feel like they require around the same amount of force as MX Blues, with a slightly better feeling bump and a much more satisfying sound.
  • Kailh Box Brown, on a GMMK (quiet, tactile) - MX Browns, but better. Same light actuation force, but it has a more defined tactile bump. One definite downside/oddity is that the actuation point is somewhat below the tactile bump, but you generally don't notice that while typing.
  • Cherry MX Blue, on a Das Keyboard III and Corsair K70 (clicky, tactile) - About as heavy as MX Browns, though they feel much more tactile to me (probably because of the way clicky MX switches work%u2014the bottom part of the switch is separate and actually snaps down to the base during actuation). I've never been a fan of the way these sound, though they feel nice.
  • Cherry MX Brown, on a Logitech G710+ (quiet, tactile) - A little on the light side, with a pretty underwhelming tactile bump. A good choice if you want a nice middle ground between linears and tactiles.
  • Cherry MX Clear, on a WASD CODE Keyboard (quiet, tactile) - I really wanted to like these, but the tactile bump feels really mushy to me.
  • Cherry MX Black, on a SteelSeries 6Gv2 (quiet, linear) - Basically, heavier reds. My typing and gaming habits aren't compatible with linear switches. I have a tendency to ride the bump, and with linear switches that tends to translate to "you hit the key, lol." I did sort of get used to them, but they weren't a good fit for me. On a side note: SteelSeries keyboards are unreliable piles of excrement.
  • Romer-G, on a Logitech G910 (quiet, tactile) - Where do I even begin? They feel like a mushier MX Brown with an even lamer tactile bump. After only a few hours of DJMAX I managed to convert several of these into linear switches (I'm not joking. I even had my dad verify it and he's far from a keyboard snob). They developed chatter (that is, they would occasionally trigger multiple times) after little more than a year. For the record, over 10 hours of play on my Zealios resulted in precisely zero change in key feel and responsiveness. Complete and utter garbage. Avoid at all costs. Even Logitech backed way the hell away from these only a few years after shitting them out onto everyone's laps. It may appear like it's in 8th place on the list, but that's just a display bug. It's actually in %u221Eth place. Fuck this switch.
And one final entry that doesn't really fit into the list:
  • Gateron Clears, on a GMMK (quiet, linear) - I didn't buy these for typing, but rather for rhythm games. These are absurdly light switches (35gf actuation!), and as a result I find them difficult to use even in that use case. I figured that the light actuation would be a boon for speed, but in reality all they do is simultaneously make me bottom out harder and prevent me from even having a chance at feeling for the actuation point, thereby slowing me down and increasing fatigue. I can't fathom even attempting to type with these.
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vladgd

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 12:02:04 AM »
I kinda use a small lap desk thing for my mouse, it's a good stable platform for a mousepad and I honestly don't miss being at a desk. Keyboard is fine on my lap 90% of the time, only 10% of the time when it's too hot and I'm in my bike shorts...and they're too slippery to keep the thing stable...besides that, I'm in a cool basement for the time being, so if it's 90degrees outside, it's still cool enough to prefer a blanket down here.

I was looking into blues, I think they might be the most popular besides reds? But the noise pollution alone from those fuckers would drive me mad. I think I'd like a tactile bump, but more noise would be annoying for anyone I live with. Browns seemed like a great middle ground, but again, pay double money for browns, or half money for reds? I chose save money.

That said, when I first got the keyboard, I didn't really like it since I was so used to the other one I used for 18 years. It probably took a few hundred hours of use (even durring my initial 1-60 in classic WoW I wasn't totally comfortable with it) to finally get used to the thing. NOW THAT I AM USED TO IT, I really enjoy the feel of the keys and smoothness the reds have going for them. Especially when say moving a character in a game, not having any click or bump or actuation feels kinda good, very smooth.

Problem comes with now that I'm well and used to this thing, and I know reds are treating me well...I don't think it would be worth money, or more importantly time to trial and error all the other options available. Mech keyboards are expensive enough for one, let alone like 9. I could understand if you're in an environment with access to said tools, but I'm more or less a casual pc user and this thing works fine enough for me...I mean I used a cheap ps/2 keyboard for near 2 decades, it doesn't take that much to impress me far as keyboards are concerned.

. I'm not sure how the plastic Corsairs feel, but the K70 felt a lot more solid than the Logitech mechs I've owned.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt because of the other keyboard I used (still works to this day, so can't knock it for reliability), but build wise it feels solid. Doesn't have any flex when I grab it and twist it, good weight, overall "feels" quality to me, having this singular keyboard being my only experience with a mech.

Spectere

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 11:11:17 AM »
I think I'd actually say that browns are more popular than blues. They were being put into so many keyboards for a while that they were perpetually out of stock (hence the price hikes). I don't mind a noisy keyboard (at home, that is—I wouldn't subject my coworkers to that) but I just wasn't too crazy about how blues sound. I prefer a clack rather than a click, which is why I love the sound of buckling spring keyboards.

There's quite a bit of nuance between switches when you look beyond genuine Cherry switches (in addition to the Zealios switches I have installed, and the Holy Pandas I have on order, I joined a group buy for some Everglide Dark Jade switches…I need help) but that's also when things tend to get really, really complicated. Cherry switches are fairly easy to identify, have a fairly simple lineup, are ubiquitous, and are cheap. I find non-Cherry switches to be superior, sure, but you're never going to be able to find a keyboard that uses Zealios V2 switches for under $100. You're going to be lucky to get just the switches for that much.

That said, when I first got the keyboard, I didn't really like it since I was so used to the other one I used for 18 years. It probably took a few hundred hours of use (even durring my initial 1-60 in classic WoW I wasn't totally comfortable with it) to finally get used to the thing. NOW THAT I AM USED TO IT, I really enjoy the feel of the keys and smoothness the reds have going for them. Especially when say moving a character in a game, not having any click or bump or actuation feels kinda good, very smooth.

If it works, it works. :) My main reason for preferring a tactile bump is because when I anticipate a future movement I tend to put some pressure on the key, so having a switch with a 50-55gf actuation force feels just about perfect for preventing accidental movements. I used MX Blacks for almost a year and even after all that I couldn't get used to the linear travel.

As far as making the initial switch, I found that the toughest part about getting used to a mechanical keyboard is adapting to the high actuation point. You have to almost completely bottom out rubber dome keyboards in order for them to register, and they're rarely smooth. Many of the rubber domes that I've used have a hard break near the top of the travel, a gritty descent, and feel mushy as they bottom out, which leads to them requiring a lot of actuation force at the beginning of travel, then having to deal with the actuation point being significantly below that. I've grown to loathe the way they feel, though I admit that Dell made (rebadged?) some good ones around 2005-2006ish. Honorable mentions include the Apple Pro Keyboards from around 2003-2004 (those tend to be very smooth), and this one random Compaq PS/2 low-profile rubber done that I ended up acquiring at some point (feels surprisingly crisp and responsive).

I don't mind scissor switch keyboards since they tend to be crisper and have less travel. Some of the Apple low-travel keyboards (Magic Keyboard 2 and the newer MacBook Pro keyboards) are downright pleasant to use for what they are. It helps that they have an aluminum backing plate, which helps them feel reasonably snappy.

Problem comes with now that I'm well and used to this thing, and I know reds are treating me well...I don't think it would be worth money, or more importantly time to trial and error all the other options available. Mech keyboards are expensive enough for one, let alone like 9.

I managed to sell the ones that didn't self destruct, at least (the 6Gv2 and the G910). :P Right now I'm using the GMMK TKL for my gaming PC and WFH setup, my IBM Model M for my DOS/Win98 retro PC, and my G710+ is sitting on my currently-abandoned desk at work. As far as non-mechanical keebs, my iMac is using a wireless Magic Keyboard 2, and, when it's hooked up, my Bemani PC is using some old Microsoft keyboard that someone gave me.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt because of the other keyboard I used (still works to this day, so can't knock it for reliability), but build wise it feels solid. Doesn't have any flex when I grab it and twist it, good weight, overall "feels" quality to me, having this singular keyboard being my only experience with a mech.

Ah yeah. If there isn't any flexing/creaking then you're in good shape. Sounds like they probably used solid internals and just surrounded it with a plastic case in order to bring the price down a few pegs.

The main reason it's important is because if a keyboard can freely flex, so can the PCB. If it goes through too much of that, bye-bye solder traces.
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Bobbias

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2020, 03:12:58 PM »
I've got a ducky shine 4 red edition with MX Reds.
(image stolen from some dude's imgur)



So, I actually really like the feel of typing on these keys. Accidentally brushing up against another key is likely to cause a typo, but on the other hand, once you're used to how easy the actuation is you really don't need to type hard at all, which is quite nice. As for rhythm games, I will say the switches have held up quite nicely so far in terms of durability. My accuracy has been consistently worse, but I've found jacks and chordstreams easier compared to when I played on laptops. I've even managed to play super light on certain patterns.

Build quality is quite solid. While there is some flex if you twist it (and the plastic creaks like a motherfucker the moment you begin putting any force on it that way) it feels super solid. It's also not exactly the lightest keyboard I've ever used.

Admin Edit: Resized picture.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:39:00 AM by Spectere »
This is going in my sig. :)

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Spectere

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2020, 08:38:07 AM »
I ended up ordering a bunch of parts to build my own 60% mech. I'll document the process and post it here when I do that.

The keycaps (GMK Yoda 2) have already arrived, and I'm currently waiting for the PCB, case, plate, and switches. I have a set of Invyr Holy Pandas on their way—going to swap them into my GMMK for a few days to see if I like them before I pull the trigger, since I'm going to have to solder the switches onto the new PCB. If I don't care for them I'll probably just fetch another set of switches from ZealPC (maybe 67g Blue Zilents, since I'm planning to use this keyboard for work when I end up having to go back to the office) and call it a day.

After I finish that, the next logical step is going to be designing a custom keyboard PCB and building something based on that. I was initially planning to do that with this build (along with a handmade wooden case and a custom plate from Ponoko, etc) but then the 60% PCB/case combo popped up on Drop and I snapped that up. Whelp.
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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2020, 09:28:44 AM »
Hell, if you're going that far, why not grab an FPGA and write your own controller for it too :P Bonus points if you write the USB controller yourself.
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Spectere

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2020, 09:30:23 AM »
Before Drop listed the PCB/case that I picked up I ended up grabbing a Teensy 2.0 for the custom keyboard project, so I'm one step ahead of you. :P
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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2020, 07:49:59 PM »
Haha, sounds like a fun project though.

I really wish I had a chance to just try out every type of switch and find out exactly what ones I like best. After typing on this KB for a while I'm starting to get used to the reds quite a bit. I used to really struggle to avoid typos. I still do end up slightly off center of the keys once in a while (and just barely touching a different key is likely to cause a typo), mostly because I don't have anything even resembling proper typing technique, but overall I've gotten used to the feel of reds. But I'd love to get a chance to try a ton of switches because I'm sure there's something I'd prefer over reds out there. I mostly got it because I figured I should be able to make use of the advantages reds afford you for hitting the actuation quickly in rhythm games.
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Spectere

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2020, 09:10:57 PM »
If you still have issues with typos but like the linear switches you might like MX Black switches. Those have a similar feel to reds but aren't quite so touchy.

You can also rapidly actuate silent tactile keys with a little bit of practice. You just have to ride the bump. Clicky tactile keys generally have a noticeably higher reset point due to how the key works (essentially two pieces, with the bottom part snapping down to make the "click" sound, with the upstroke bringing it back into place for another actuation) but tactile switches are pretty much just solid bodied switches with a little bump on them.

It is worth looking into the non-Cherry switches as well. Kailh Box Browns are basically snappier MX Browns, for instance.

If you have some cash to burn and want to try 72 different switches, KBDFan has a nice looking tester here: https://kbdfans.com/collections/switches-tester/products/kbdfans-72-switches-tester-all-in-one. I'm kind of on the fence about picking it up, considering I already have a set of Holy Pandas and Everglide Dark Jades on order.

I'll definitely review the Holy Pandas on here after I get them. Spec-wise, they look to be somewhat similar to the Zealios, but we'll see.

Edit: I'm also desperately trying to stop myself from jumping on these: https://drop.com/buy/drop-matt3o-mt3-susuwatari-custom-keycap-set. The /dev/tty caps I'm using on my main keyboard made me fall in love with scooped keys and hi-profile sculpting, and those ones look awesome.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 09:17:38 PM by Spectere »
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vladgd

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2020, 11:41:46 AM »
It would be nice for some big box stores to jump more into the mechanical keyboard bandwagon and iunno have one of those nifty difty switch testers just out for customers to try, which would probably encourage them to spend money. Im just not that much of an enthusiast to drop some $60 just to see what kind of switches I want in my next over $100 keyboard, but if had free access to one would totally use it. Kinda curious if smaller shops would have those things hands, but with covid going around, I don't even know whats open anymore.



Been eyeing that board before the k63, but being near $100 more, and my first mech, you can understand my decision. Still that sakura board is sexxxxxxxx, I may get one in the future if I have a reason to A spend the money and B switch off cherry reds.

Spectere

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2020, 05:04:15 PM »
That would be nice! Unfortunately, it seems like many of the retail outlets are under the misapprehension that mechanical keyboard == gaming keyboard, so you either end up with a selection of rubber domes with a bunch of expensive mechs of rather dubious quality (funny how Corsair, one of the cheaper gaming brands, tend to be the best choice when it comes to mainstream mechs).

I think the main reason that stores like that avoid brands like Das Keyboard, Ducky, etc, is because they're kind of hard to market to the mainstream market. Gaming mechs are already enough of a hard sell to people who are used to rubber domes ("why would I ever pay $100 for a keyboard?"), and the higher quality typing keyboards tend to reach $150-200, easy. By the time I finished building it, my GMMK TKL cost around $250 ($60 for the base unit, $90 for the switches, and $100 for the caps). While I wouldn't trade this typing experience for anything (until I build a better keyboard, that is…) most people would pass out at the very thought of spending that much on "just a keyboard," even if it's something they use for 8-12 hours, 5-7 days a week.

Unfortunately, I think that's going to too big of a hurdle for most places to want to jump through. That said, it would be nice to see more tech-friendly stores like Micro-Center and Fry's offer a better selection. While they do seem to have a better selection than most places, they still tend to have the same gaming mechs that everyone else offers.
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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2020, 11:04:03 AM »
Let's just say I got fucked by customs and the CAD-USD conversion rate when I bought my kb... Fucker ended up costing around 380 CAD IIRC by the end of everything.

But yeah, I mean there's been a pretty sizable mechanical keyboard fanbase online for quite a while. It's a shame stores have that mech == gaming mentality. While gaming did factor into why I chose MX Red switches, I had already wanted a mech for quite a while before I pulled the trigger. And it was primarily because I was sick of using craptastic keyboards that cost like $5 to replace. I wanted something that would actually last, and also feel better than rubber dome keyboards. And yeah, as much as some people might dislike linear switches, or even MX Reds in particular (I know linear vs tactile is a big point of contention for some people) I still think they feel miles better than cheap rubber domes do.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 11:10:28 AM by Bobbias »
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Spectere

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Re: The Keeb Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2020, 12:50:18 PM »
Good god, man. I think that goes a few steps beyond getting fucked.

One of the things I appreciate about the greater mechanical keyboard community is that they're fully aware that switch preference is 100% subjective and is dependent more on how you use the keyboard than what you're using it for. As I've mentioned previously, the way that I tend to even play games makes linear switches woefully unsuitable for me (worse than rubber domes, actually, since those usually have a notable break point or, at the very least, a lower actuation point. Hell, for some typing styles, linear vs. tactile would make literally no difference. If you tend to rest your hands lightly on the keys while idle and bottom out while typing, a linear switch wouldn't feel much different than a tactile one.

Switch weight makes a pretty profound difference as well. My former favorite switches were MX Browns (45g actuation force, 60g bottom out force), but those tended to be too light with a really weak bump. My current set of Purple Zealios V2 switches feature slightly heavier actuation force (50g), albeit with a more pronounced bump, but the 67g has helped with fatigue quite a bit, simply because I'm far less prone to hard bottoming out like I was with the Browns. Kinda wish that non-mainstream switches weren't so expensive, because I want them all (and I'd love to evaluate more of ZealPC's offerings).
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