spectere.net
The Chatterbox => Random Chat => Topic started by: Bobbias on September 23, 2007, 04:39:57 AM
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Now, I hope you guys can manage this maturely, unlike Riha does, on the forum...
I recently got into a religion argument on another forum I go to (and am probably leaving soon.) However, the person I was arguing with obviously doesn't understand the concept of a proper argument. All of their posts were personal attacks on me, and were quite scathing, while I was intending to put forth a simple argument on the subject of religion, and the fact that organized church is not really a good thing, since politics, ambition, and corruption make many members of the church use the words of the bible in ways they were not intended to be used simply to exert control over people.
My original post:
My truth is that regardless of whether jesus was in any way related to god, he had some good ideas. People should follow the morals, but the idea of instantly being forgiven is stupid, and other religious things are stupid. I don't believe in organized religion, because as far as I'm concerned they are just there for crowd control. Look at the dark ages, they were dark because the church refused to teach the masses science, so everything was based around the church, and so the church held power over everyone. Whatever the church said, must be true, because they can communicate with god! they MUST be right.. Yeah. ok.
Looking back, it could have been worded MUCH better, but as you can see, I was NOT trying to insult anyone as a person, but simply point out the flaws I see in the church and tell them WHY I believe what I do. You will note that I did in fact endorse jesus's teachings.
Why can't you respect people for once? God dammit you piss me off. Just shut up, okay? We all have a right to believe what we want! Who the hell made you God to tell us what's right and what's wrong to believe in?! Just stop it! It's wrong to look down on others religions and it's in the frikken rules of the forum go read it.
Personal attack #1. Not only does she take the lord's name in vain, she presumes to judge me as a human and tell me the exact thing I've been saying all along: people CAN believe what they want. I do not presume to be god once in my post, do I? I do not believe it's wrong to point out flaws in other people's religions, because without knowing of those flaws, they cannot be fixed.
Offended, I respond like this:
If an admin is offended, he can ban me.
I disrespect the church, not their beliefs. It's not my problem if they are offended by the fact that I don't believe in a church. I'm not a church burner, and I will respect their beliefs, but I don't believe in them, and will say that I do not believe in it.
You are judging me as a person, which is worse than me insulting the church.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself"
I believe in that saying. I don't believe in the church, and I don't believe in the truth of the bible's stories. That doesn't mean I am disrespecting them.
"Do not point out the twig in your brother's eye when you cannot see the log in your own"
Your judgment of me may have been called upon by the fact that I judged the church, but I will NOT stand for being insulted for STATING MY BELIEFS.
Yes, I am opposed to organized religion, and all the church stuff, and yes, I will readily say that in the off chance that I may sway people from believing some of the stuff that is pointless. (such as all that stupid stuff in church and such. I know because I went to catholic schools and have gone to church with my schools.)
I am sick and fucking tired of you being an asshole every time I state my OPINION of what I BELIEVE. I am NOT trying to insult you, or any member of this site, and my posts are OBJECTIVE VIEWS. They are not a personal attack on anyone, and they aren't intended to be. So quit being such an asshole and insulting ME when I insult an IDEA.
For christ's fucking sake. You are being a hypocrite for insulting me as a person for me presenting my beliefs.
I don't need to say any more about that one.
Oh dear me. Am i offending you? Tsk tsk shame on me. LOL i laughed when i read that. Hate me, go ahead
Blah blah blah that's basically all i got from your post. Make it smaller next time maybe i'll read it all.
Anyway, ummm yea. State your opinions, go ahead. But the way you state them you use offensiveness in it. And i was just pointing it out. Instead of hating on things, (like you were in your previous post) you could've just said "I don't believe in God or any religion." Not rant on about how you find church ways this, that or the other thing. That's what i was pointing out. Jesus.
Hmm, sounds to me like she's run out of fuel. Maybe it's because I seem to have a better argument for why I'm saying what I'm saying? Either that, or all that naruto and spongebob she's been watching made her retarded.
Trainz_07 then responded with this:
Sigh, I was afraid that something like this might occur
History's flaws have yet again revealed itself, in the past churches were organizations that ruled with an iron fist, not because they had the power of military arms, but the power of beliefs and religions. As said in ancient texts, religion was a powerful thing that even kings would bow down to, that was because people had faith in their religion, do the Templars ring a bell?
That's how wars start, because of religion, I'm not saying believing in a religion is bad, no absolutely not. However when one becomes too much of a zealot and he/she looks down upon other religion, conflict arises, unneeded conflict. God wanted us to live in peace, did He not? Why should people take away lives in the name of their religion, that's not called being a true believer or a zealot, that's absurd in my opinion.
It wasn't the religion that started the wars, it was the people's heart who thought that their religion was absolute and the one and only. That's not true, because religions were made for people to believe in, not use them as an excuse to take away land and lives.
Originally quoted by the Encyclopedia of Religion
"In summary, it may be said that almost every known culture involves the religious in the above sense of a depth dimension in cultural experiences at all levels
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the lord's name in vain
God damn it. This is why I hate religion. X|
*Personal opinion. Don't jump down my throat kthx*
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Well, religion is pretty much necessary, but yes, there are a lot of problem, which is why I'm against organized religion. Each person is different, and though there needs to be a common set of rules, we need to find a way to follow our own morality.
We ended this a couple minutes ago, but apologizing for offending each other, with me explaining in a frieldlier way why I'm against organized religion, and why I stated my views. I personally believe that if I can get 1 person to look at their religion, and acknowledge the flaws and try to overcome them, then I have done something good, and that will be my reward.
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religion is pretty much necessary
how do you figure?
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I agree, I remember even saying that the beliefs and the values that religion gives people are not a bad thing. But the concept of man taking over it and corrupting it to the point where (like in Catholicism) people worship some man who's supposedly the 'liaison' to God (i.e. the pope). And giving to the church through collections during church sounds quite profitable.
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And giving to the church through collections during church sounds quite profitable.
huh? And agree with who?
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Necessary in the sense that every developing civilization tends to have one. It's a form of mass control, and generally speaking, is developed by nearly every culture on earth.
Inevitable may have been a better word, but who cares.
Anyway, I really need to go to sleep now.
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Necessary in the sense that every developing civilization tends to have one. It's a form of mass control, and generally speaking, is developed by nearly every culture on earth.
Agreed. Some people just need "God's wrath" to prevent them from doing certain things. They need to have that fear concerning what'll happen to them in the afterlife if they're naughty on Earth.
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I don't care for organized religion because I like thinking for myself. I do believe in a figure similar to the Christian god in that he created everything, but I don't believe this god cares enough to either reward or punish people based on what they do while they're alive. Right and wrong are relative, and religions define them. These definitions are almost never the same, though, and that's why I don't follow these religions. Of course, I don't think they're completely unnecessary because not everyone can think for themselves.
oops i stated a view that someone might disagree with
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And this is the sort of thing I was hoping could develop on that site :/
One of the biggest points in my belief is that I don't care whether god exists or not. There's no way to prove it, or disprove it, and since there is no way to prove or disprove, either way makes no difference, because it's not going to change the world from what it already is. I'm open to believing in god if I see some actual proof, but I'm not going to blindly believe.
I could still rant a lot more, but I'm tired and shit.
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Just out of sheer (morbid) curiosity, which forum are you referring to?
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www.kylelandry.com/klforum
It's a forum dedicated to a youtube piano player who's original account was kyle556 and had over 130 videos of him playing piano. Youtube took it down after 3 videos were removed by the head honcho companies behind some anime. They have yet to make an official reply as to why it was taken down, or any response at all actually. They're basically just not responding to the people's emails, so this site is a community based around his videos, music, and that sort of thing. It's sorta like a youtube member, music and piano playing, and much less mature version of spectere.net... sorta.
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This thread sucks and is now about how the DMCA is retarded (you know the collegehumor 'commenter business meeting' video was DMCA'd from youtube? :D); how Bobbias probably looks great naked; or how yelling at folker for their religious beliefs or associations on the internet is masochistic at best and should be avoided at all costs - true authorities on religion tend not to use the internet.
Bobbias- cock or GTFO.
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AFAIA I'm the only Christian on this forum, so I guess I should post (even if we have got wacky production issues going on in work, I'm sure they can wait a few seconds ;-o).
xXRiha-ChanXx: is a goof, I agree :). The name was a bit of a giveaway, really (I'm sure there are mature people who use names styled like that, but I've never seen them).
Organization: is a good thing; you keep raising issues you have with individuals roguishly interpreting things in questionable ways, but a sane hierarchy is the perfect tool for neutering such people. (Unless one or more of them manage to get at the top of hierarchy, but there are ways of dealing with that too. Look up about the Reformation, which is also something I meant to bring up regarding your point that you know all about the Church on account of your experience of Catholicism; you may have missed a few things here and there ;))
Jesus: is God ← is a... fairly central tenet of Christianity, so saying that you don't believe that but you do think that he "had some good ideas" is probably slightly more contentious than perhaps you realised. ;-P (I actually don't know anyone who has a problem with your latter statement, except maybe some of the wackier cults).
Your opinion: disagrees with mine in a lot of places, but you're still entitled to hold it (even though, as we all know, disagreeing with me on any subject is equivalent to failure). Maybe some people need to recall that salvation is a personal accomplishment; ie, it's impossible for one person to "convert" another. The best you can do is try to convince them to do it themselves, and even then the Bible specifically mentions that it's OK to let someone be if they're really not up for it.
Quotable Quote: "God gave us Christianity; the devil helped us make it a religion"
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I did see something awesome in that thread:
I hate this forum style. Simple machines is better.
SMF wins.
Sorry for any spelling/formatting errors, have to dash now; my inbox is full of emails from mainframe processes that contain a lot of exclamation marks and capital letters. :-/
Eww. :(
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I didn't claim to know everything, but I do claim to know a fair bit, since I was A) educated as catholic, and B) actually listened in class.
The jesus is god thing: My whole point with that was that yes, the church has a lot of good moral ideas, but the problem is not in the ideas they are supposed to follow, but in how the church decides to follow them. I do honestly think that in the current state the roman catholic church needs to reform itself before I would say that they are a good organization. The reformed catholic church, I respect, but since they are more or less just another branch from a large tree, it isn't the same as having the entire church with their beliefs. If the entire "tree" were to be reformed, then I would have a lot less bad things to say about them.
Sure, there are a lot of good people who make the church a decent organization, but the simple fact that power corrupts, personal ambitions affect actions of people in power, and politics affect those people with power giving them yet more reasons to twist the ideas of the bible to their will, is a huge problem, and in any hierarchy like the church, it is pretty much bound to happen.
I say this about every post I make, but I'm not trying to offend anyone with anything I say, which includes the "jesus had some good ideas" bit. I'm trying to show that regardless of my dislike for the church, I still think that many of the christian ideas are great ideas, and endorse anyone who believes in them. I just see no point in caring about whether jesus was god or not, because as far as I'm concerned, that shouldn't matter. Even if there was a god, and jesus was simply a prophet speaking ideas of his own that aren't divinely inspired, they are great ideas.
I'm not trying to say that jesus isn't god, or that he was, I'm looking past that point to the message he brought to us. It bothers me how shortsighted people can be when it comes to this. A great idea is a great idea no matter who's mouth it comes from. It doesn't matter who says it, as long as the message gets across.
I'd write more, but my sleep habits are totally messed, and I'm tired right now.
I did see something awesome in that thread:
Haha, yeah, it's a vbulletin and though I like the arcade feature, I hate the board. I'm just too used to SMF, lol. plus, I love the SMF "insert Quote" button, lol.
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People like xXRiha-ChanXx are the reason I hate Christianity and other organized religions. There are reasons I do not wish to go into though.
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She isn't even a christian, she's muslim, lol. that's the truly sad part.
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People try to politick? Check. Hence there exist people like myself who take a "search and destroy" attitude to that sort of thing inside the Church ;) (presumably including in the Catholic church, although there's a lot of inertia to overcome in there). Just because things inevitably crop up doesn't mean we can't beat them down! I do like administering beatings >_>
You keep mentioning about "the" message Jesus brought, but there are actually two (at least). One being "Okay guys, I've taken mortal form for a bit, and I'm going to die for you so you can get a bye-ball on screwing up"{*1}, and the other being the one you reference, that "And while I'm here, let's clear up a few misunderstandings about how to carry on; because srsly guys, what in the name of Me". I don't know that it's a case of "looking past" one to the other, they're both pretty highly important, but it's interesting to note that He commented on a facet of the subject:
Jesus said unto him, "'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
The specified ranking of those two commandments probably conflicts with a humanist view of the world (in fact, it more-or-less definitely does), but Christianity is all about God first, and only incidentally about us :).
Anyway, I only came online to check my email, I'm supposed to be doing other stuff. I need to spend less time dashing about, is my considered opinion. :o Once again I beg forgiveness for any bad writing. :)
{*1} Disclaimer: GreyKnight doesn't actually use cool language like this in real life, so if any of the metaphors are a bit strained, that's why
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I'm not even going to get fired up. I have a fire hotter than the PITS OF MORDOR when it comes to religion, and somebody will probably take it to heart, then leave the forum.
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somebody will probably take it to heart, then leave the forum.
lawl
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xXRiha-ChanXx
i stopped reading right there, don't take people with names like that seriously.
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I try not to, lol.
Yes, jesus's other message was a renewal of the teaching to love god, but what I was pointing out was the fact that I believe that nearly everything he said does not conflict with my views of morality, and are in fact great messages. Respect, love, and happiness are what everyone wants, and what everyone needs to give, but coming from a unique point of view, I disregard the fact that jesus was supposedly god in human form, because since there is no way to prove things one way or another, it's a moot point.
What does loving god mean? To love god is to give yourself to his commandments, which were given to us by jesus, and the ten commandments (although almost all of the old testament should NEVER be taken literally.) As far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly fine to believe in god, whether it's a personal god, the christian god, allah, yhwh, or any other god. If you need something that you can believe in blindly, then god is probably the best choice, but it's the people who either force their religion on others (jehova's witness and all the other evangelical churches anyone?) and the people who believe in the whole "if you do not believe, you are going to burn in hell" stuff who bug me most.
Sometimes I get sick of people lecturing me on jesus and such (a friend of mine in high school was one of those extremely religious people, but she was protestant, which I believe is better than roman catholic in most of their beliefs), but it's perfectly fine for those people to believe it, as long as it doesn't get in the way of living your life.
For instance, I am pro choice about nearly everything (I do draw a line on some things, there are times that things need to be heavily regulated). I am pro choice on abortion, voluntary euthanasia, and other subjects like that, because I believe that regardless of the moral circumstances, a person has the right to chose. A foetus is a potential human to me, and even though you are killing a person, taking away their future, they never had it to begin with. Yes, I am bothered by abortion, I know how it is performed, and it disgusts me, but even though it bothers me, this is a free country, and stuff like this should not be controlled by religion. Canada and the US are secular societies, and their laws do not need to coincide with the church, and even if I think something is morally wrong, does not mean that I am right, nor does it mean that they do not have the right to do something even though I believe it's wrong. I try to apply this ideal to every situation, though there are times where I think that things must be regulated.
To me, my "religious" ideas, and my political ideas are very close in nature, because in essence, they both deal with morality. I know this is becoming an essay, but I like being able to get this out someplace where I can express myself and expect criticism, not personal attacks. Every time someone criticizes my views, it allows me to look at what I have said, amend anything that I don't believe came out right, and review what I believe. I may say something differently, or I may change what I said altogether because of some flaw that you have pointed out. Sometimes I need criticism to properly help me express every facet of my views, and it's only in a mature place that I can actually do that, so I will thank you guys for not making a mockery of this thread, and for providing me with criticism, because I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, and I can' always express myself properly.
I know this seems poorly constructed as far as an "essay" is concerned, but this is the exact order that these ideas came up, and that's how I type. I have a hard time completely separating my ideas at times, because they just flow in my head...
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lawl
He cam back ;D.
xXRiha-ChanXx
i stopped reading right there, don't take people with names like that seriously.
I should have too. Also I agree with bewbies that the church abuses it's power and has too much power in todays world (at least the catholic church). Also religious debates never ever ever end well, or go anywhere positive.
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Not necessarily, I've had a number of decent debates in person, and you guys have proven that you can still talk about the subject without making personal attacks and turning it into a fight.
People need to stop thinking that religion is such a taboo subject to argue about. They simply need to be more mature about it. People need to be able to look at their beliefs and see the faults and such without becoming angry or defensive. Instead, either actively defend your position, or admit that there is a problem. I will agree that the major fault of my belief is that there's nothing you can rely on, no simply explanation for why things happen, no concrete thing to believe in in times of need. You can probably point out a number of things I can't think of, and if I agree that they're faults, I'll say so.
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Not necessarily, I've had a number of decent debates in person, and you guys have proven that you can still talk about the subject without making personal attacks and turning it into a fight.
stfu ur stupid <3
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stfu ur stupid <3
NO U
(http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/nou-37799.jpg)
(also why does bbcode not have to follow html? <img> doesn't use </img>, yet [img] insists on using [/img]. Why can't we use [img=URL] ? oh well. )
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Hahaha, god I love that picture.
(also why does bbcode not have to follow html? <img> doesn't use </img>, yet [img] insists on using [/img]. Why can't we use [img=URL] ? oh well. )
I do recall an obscure variation of BBcode that used [img=URL]...I don't remember which software did it like that, though.
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Yes, [img] [ /img] always did bother me :/
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He cam back ;D.
did i, now ???
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Yes, [img] [ /img] always did bother me :/
See? This is why we can't have religious discussions.
did i, now ???
Kinda.
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Kinda.
o