Retired => Retired Boards => |)|)R FR3|< => Topic started by: Bobbias on September 04, 2015, 06:16:46 PM

Title: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 04, 2015, 06:16:46 PM

Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 05, 2015, 03:20:12 PM
I almost died from cringing at this. Now YOU can almost die from cringing at this.

Thanks, Bobbias. Thanks. :P

Edit: If that guy is really serious and not trolling (and, judging from his "website," it seems like he is serious), yikes. I just...yikes.

I think the really funny part is that he didn't do much better on MAX 300 heavy than I did on pad. My best on EXTREME was a FC with 24 greats, and if I remember correctly, o!m's timing windows are wider.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 06, 2015, 07:02:20 PM
To be fair, he might actually be playing on pad. Also, I don't remember the rest, but I know a 300g (max score in osu) is 16ms, which is relatively tight, but the lower score windows get pretty big.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 06, 2015, 08:10:29 PM
16ms is roughly equivalent to a marvelous in DDR or a just great in IIDX (1 NTSC frame). Regardless, if he's getting that many 150g's, either the offset is a bit jacked up or his timing is kinda bad (sort of like the "new wave" of IIDX players that can clear any 12 but can't AA/AAA anything).

Regardless, I can't imagine it took a whole lot of time or talent to "produce" those "highly original" MAX 300 and TLOM charts.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 06, 2015, 11:20:19 PM
Yeah. I mean, the overlay is kinda nice, but dead simple and really wouldn't take long for anyone who has an idea of what they're doing.

He should at least have included some liveplay footage if he played this on pad. I know he's got the setup to do it, considering his youtube videos.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 07, 2015, 07:33:02 PM
Yeah, the scores would be pretty decent if played on pad. TLoM heavy is pretty intense in some parts, after all.

Honestly, though, I don't see the point in using o!m when it comes to playing on pad anyway. StepMania is the de facto standard for that sort of thing for a very good reason: it's really great at being a DDR sim. o!m always struck me as something that's trying to be too many things at once and actively harms itself by stubbornly sticking to the Ouendan-style scoring system.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 10, 2015, 09:02:24 PM
I don't mind that osu is trying to be a diverse game with plenty of game modes and such... But keeping the combo based scoring for standard is fucking stupid.

As far as o!m's scoring goes, it's a shame that woc came up with such a flawed and complicated to explain system, especially given that osu's rankings are based on score.

Well, technically the way ranking in mania works is:
Based on the difficulty rating, every map is given a PP value for maximum score.
Based on the score you achieve when playing a map, you are awarded a percentage of the maximum PP value for that map.
A list is formed of your scores rated from highest PP value to lowest. Your top scores are summed, but scaled so that every additional score added is worth 5% less than the previous.

The last part there is actually very smart, because by just summing PP, you would make farming points by playing tons of songs at the same difficulty level easy. Since each successive score is worth less points, it's generally better to focus on adding scores to the top of the list, not the bottom.

Still, there's lots of other issues, like the terrible ranking system, power abuse, a godawful community, etc. as well.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 12, 2015, 03:44:58 AM
asdfjkl I checked the thread again and lol controller. *facepalm*

Regarding o!m, the biggest issue that you run into with that sort of diversity is that it ends up being a jack of all trades and a master of none. If it's truly shooting for its own thing, cool, but it doesn't really seem to me like that was the initial intent (considering it is pretty clearly using the layouts from DDR, DJMAX, O2Jam, and IIDX). The fact that so much of it is adjustable makes it feel like it's a generalized simulator stuffed inside of something that's trying to be a competitive game. It somehow manages to feel more derivative than osu! itself (which didn't do much more than straight up clone EBA/Ouendan, though, technical design mistakes aside, it certainly did a damn good job of it).

I can't say I've ever gotten to experience the community there, but from what I've seen in various places it seems to be legendary in its badness. Maybe I should rename this forum...DDR Freak is pretty much just an archive nowadays. :P
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 12, 2015, 10:49:11 AM
Ahahaha please don't soil the site by having a direct reference to osu on it.

And yeah, all technical mistakes aside I was impressed with how well osu does simulate the EBA/Ouendan experience. And it's quite well polished graphically too.

The thing about mania is that it was actually created by someone else, not peppy himself. I'm not sure how much input peppy had on things. He's a fan of IIDX, and said he always planned to have an IIDX inspired game mode for osu, which is apparently why the game defaults to basing scroll speed on song BPM rather than using fixed speeds like nearly everybody prefers.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 13, 2015, 12:29:37 AM
Okay, okay, I'll leave the name alone. Besides, as it stands now it's a bit of a tribute. :)

Yeah, I remember you mentioning before that o!m was created by someone else. Not sure what happened between the initial plans and the actual implementation, but it really seemed like it somehow grew a lot of floppy limbs between then and now. I understand why. I mean, IIDX is so discordant with how osu! works and what the community would expect (i.e. loose timing, strict life bar in osu!, vs strict timing and a passmark-style life bar) that it seems like they had to make a lot of concessions to make it fit at all. From what I've seen (disclaimer: I haven't played it myself) and read, it doesn't sound like they did a particularly good job with many of the basic mechanics.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 13, 2015, 09:57:01 AM
Well, technical issues aside I do think o!m is not as bad as some people make it out to be, but it's far from perfect. It has some nice features. Having leaderboards is nice, and as a supporter you also get a country wide leaderboard and a friends only leaderboard. You also get what they call Osu!Direct, which is an ingame search and download system. You can spectate people as they play, and with supporter if you don't have the map someone's playing (assuming it's submitted to the system) it will automatically download it. Skins are relatively customizable, and will probably be a lot more customizable when Osu!Next happens. If nothing else, peppy is certainly dedicated to the game, and is constantly working on it.

Most of the things I have issues with are the actual system for getting your beatmap ranked in the first place, and the requirements to do so.

For example, you are required to have at least 2 difficulties, one of which has to be below 2 stars in difficulty, and are required to have a "proper difficulty spread" which essentially means anyone who wants to make a legitimately hard chart (like overjoy level difficulty) is forced to have somewhere around 6 (roughly) difficulties in their set. Considering how much more work it takes to make something at that difficulty level actually good, this is extremely discouraging. Additionally, you are required to add hitsounds to your map. The game has a few built in samples that you can use (and you can add custom ones as well), but applying hitsounds to each difficulty can be quite the headache.

Oh, and once you've done that you'll need to ask people to 'mod' or look at your map and make suggestions on how to improve it (which usually involves people requesting you change patterns that they find hard, even if those patterns have a good reason for being that way), because even though it's not technically a requirement for ranking, the people responsible for nominating maps for ranking usually require maps to have several mods before they will even look at it (because having a map disqualified has negative effects on whoever nominated it).

Oh, and in order to get mods, you usually have to either have friends who will mod your stuff, or post your map in mod queue threads on the forum. Of course, finding an open mod queue that will actually accept your map can be difficult, since many mod queues have restrictions such as "only 4k, only anime music, only maps less than 2 minutes" and such.

Not to mention that many kinds of patterns that you would find in o2jam/bms charts are considered flat out unrankable.

As a result of this, we have relatively few truly difficult beatmaps that are ranked, and a growing number of low effort low difficulty maps with no end in sight. Peppy has said that he's aware that there are problems with the system that he wants to deal with, but considering that he rarely ever consults with members of the community and instead tends to make decisions on his own and tell people to deal with it or fuck off and don't play his game, I have little faith that things will actually improve.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 15, 2015, 09:10:08 PM
Wow, that's a seriously shitty system.

I can completely understand a ranked game not having a free for all submission process (i.e. the old Bemanistyle sims database), but that's just miserable.  Even if I were interested in making beatmaps I would quickly lose interest with those rules. I'm certainly open to suggestions, but having to change patterns around to make less sense because a mod didn't like them is a bit on the crazy side. Kinda sounds like the mods would shit their pants if they saw some of the stuff in IIDX, and Konami sure as hell ranks those charts.

Kinda think Peppy's ego might have gotten to his head if he really thinks that. Criticism (with a decent filter, because not every idea is a good one) is one of the most important tools for game designers, especially ones that run highly community-oriented games.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 16, 2015, 10:21:22 AM
Well, you're free to deny a mod's suggestions. Hell, we've had some drama where someone makes a map with shitty patterns (like, legitimately shitty enough that quite a few top tier players complained, and at least once where it was actually disqualified from being ranked because of the pattern) and the creator just denied any suggestions to improve it.

But yeah, the ranking system is fucking bullshit, and peppy is legendary for being a gigantic dickbag. I once suggested that he should make fixed scroll speeds the default, because scaling the scroll speed to the BPM of a song makes it much more difficult for newcomers, who also happen to be the least likely to realize there's even an option to switch between the two. He flat out refused on the grounds that IIDX uses BPM scaled speeds (I was lucky he even explained why he made this decision since he often just refuses something without any explanation at all).
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 17, 2015, 07:31:01 PM
Oh yeah, I have no doubt that you can ignore the suggestions, but I imagine in most cases that would give you a pretty high chance of being rejected, especially if there are sanctions against the mods that approve them.

I can definitely understand dickery to a certain degree. Programmers are a lot of things, but they generally aren't particularly great on the PR front. For a project that large, I really don't think it's in his best interests to directly mingle in the community for that very reason. Minecraft Forge tends to have the same issue. It's an absolutely fantastic project--I mean, obviously--but the lead programmer is extremely caustic on his forums. I can sympathize with the guy because I know that the Minecraft community isn't exactly brilliant (it seems to be an equal and sludgy mixture of kids who don't know any better, arrogant scrubs, awesome people, and insanely smart people with lackluster social skills, in my experience), but when you're the frontman on a large project it's not a good idea to snap at people who ask simple questions.

Considering how much of an ass I was in my early 20s I probably don't have much room to talk, but at least I matured a bit. :P

Speaking of which: I'm going to be 31 in November. FML.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Bobbias on September 18, 2015, 12:55:12 AM
Well it kinda depends on whether or not denying them is going to cause a shitstorm. We've had several cases where (usually asian, most often chinese) mappers deny suggestions made by (usually western, usually stepmania) players/charters, for example, Halogen- and Caliber/Fullerene. When something like that happens, it's quite common for other people to chime in saying shit like "seriously, wtf is your problem, this pattern is awful, for the love of god, change it." or "dude, why the shitty attitude? XYZ made a good point, that pattern is really awkward" etc. which can quickly devolve into flamewars.

Other times you get things like this:

I denied 2 mods completely in that post, but I also explained very clearly how those mods go against my main concept for that map, and that I wasn't trying to be a dick by denying their mods.

As for programmers not being good at PR... yeah not a surprise there. Too bad the rest of the administration is also full of assholes who don't understand how to be professional too.
Title: Re: I almost died from cringing at this
Post by: Spectere on September 18, 2015, 02:41:57 AM
In other words, "welcome to the Internet, motherfucker." :P

I know in a lot of ways flamewars like that demonstrate the difference that age and experience can make (in many cases, anyway...some people are just assholes or incredibly immature). It's kind of strange to think that some of the people coming into the scene are about as old as we were when we got into the community many moons ago.

Regarding the admins being cocks, one major reason for that in a lot of cases is that the wrong people end up getting promoted. Sometimes you get lucky, but in a lot of cases you get people who are either unwilling to do the job properly (i.e. they don't want to moderate their friends' posts), go on an epic power trip the second they get the powers, or both! I've seen plenty of mods get all buddy buddy with regulars and shitcan new members right out of the gate. Not mentioning names, but a few of the mods on a0.com were very much in that category.

Long story short: a lot of people stubbornly refuse to admit that successful forums need to be run in a relatively professional manner. That doesn't mean that you can't have fun, but you have to be consistent with the rules and you can't be afraid to tell people that they're acting like a fucking prick.