Author Topic: TeamFortress 2 Sucks  (Read 6445 times)

Spectere

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TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« on: April 24, 2008, 12:24:52 PM »
TeamFortress 2 is awful.

I don't think it would even be possible to make the Heavy more over-powered.  I mean, they were tough and strong in TF/TFC, but holy fuck.  If you put a Heavy together with a medic they are, quite literally, invincible.

And what's the deal with spies being able to run around taking out EVERYTHING?  In TF/TFC, spies could only take down sentries by dumping their entire load of frag grenades on it.  This allowed them to take out one sentry gun per base while under cover.  In TF2, they just run around inside the base SAPPING EVERYTHING with absolutely no penalty.

The scouts are too fast and their weapons do too much damage.  They can cover far too much ground to make them even remotely fair in attack/defend.  If you spread your guys out too much they'll get annihilated.  If you focus on one point and the other team has a couple of spies, you'll lose multiple points because the scouts are considerably more mobile than anything.

The snipers having to "recharge" their rifles is lame.  If you're just heading up to the deck, the person across the way is going to have a fully charge rifle that's easily capable of maiming you with one shot, in addition to the advantage that he would already be aiming at you.  It also takes way too long to charge.

Ubercharges are completely imbalanced.  Take the aforementioned Heavy/Medic combo, throw in an Ubercharge (which can be prepared prior to the battle) and head to a capture point -- you'll take it and mow down every single defender.  Making players invincible for that length of time is dumb.

Sentry guns are borderline useless now.  They have too short of a range and can be easily destroyed by scouts if they pick it off from outside its target radius (which is too short to be useful in most cases).

Demomen have been seriously nerfed.  Give me my detpack and MIRVs back (actually, any semblance of a weapon that does more than 2 damage to scouts would be fine by me).  I played as a demo a lot in classic TF and had problems killing anyone in TF2.

Engineers suck for two aforementioned reasons -- the sentries are a lot weaker and everything they build can be killed very VERY quickly by spies.  At least they made dispensers somewhat useful.  The new build/upgrade system sort of takes the danger out of building it a bit (in TF/TFC you were defenseless while you built things) but it works fairly well.  I don't care for the ability to build sentry guns underwater, though...

Pyros are more of an annoyance than a threat now.  Considering it takes about twenty minutes of sustained fire to actually kill someone, their most useful now when it comes to finding spies.

Soldiers are...basically the same as they always were, sans frags and nail grenades (of course).

Medics need to not have such a large healing range.  It completely takes most of the danger out of being a medic.  I tried playing as a medic and found myself standing way out of harm's way while I healed and ubercharged heavies.  Not my idea of excitement.  At least in the original you actually have to physically hit the person you were healing.  You could still keep a HWGuy at full health by repeatedly whacking him, but you had to stand close enough so that a soldier's rocket could kill you when it hits the HWGuy.  Much more risky, much more fair.

Oh, I also love the ridiculously long respawn times.  There were some maps where ubercharged Heavies literally eviscerated my team, then ran and took every single point before any of us could even respawn once.

I guess that's about it for now.  I wonder if anyone still plays QWTF...
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vladgd

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 04:01:19 PM »
ut2k4
dm rankin
8 players
FINAL DESTINATION

Shoop Da Whoop

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 08:50:53 PM »
I tried TF forever and it stayed true to TF classic, but it was a little too buggy for me to play.

Spectere

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 09:47:11 PM »
Freaking sweet.  I'll have to grab that, then.

This is one of the things that pretty much sealed the deal for me (from the site's FAQ):

Quote
Will the MOD feature the engineer's teleporter?
An emphatic, "No."
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NewF

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 02:41:06 AM »
The thing I hate about TF 2, is that if you're a spy, EVERYONE shoots at you when you're disguised, its basically useless to go as a spy unless you're cloaked because every person that runs by you, WILL shoot at you, regardless if you're on their team or not.

Heavy i've never really had a problem with, even when they're with medics, because one headshot from a sniper and they're done. And they're insanely slow, so its easy for a spy to get at them. In my own opinion, i'd honestly think that the Spies should have the speed the scouts have. Spies are supposed to be fast and sneaky. A spy can hardly even catch up to a soldier. And if you're not cloaked, by the time you get to one, they spot you and randomly shoot at you because thats what everyone does, which is retarded.

Ulti

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 02:48:29 AM »
I never was able to get into TF2. It's pretty cool, in my opinion, it's just that I don't have the patience to learn all the little tricks, all the while getting obliterated repeatedly by every other player on the server. Fortress Forever is pretty damn sweet, though.

Eggman

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 03:02:10 AM »
I'd probably like TF2 more if there was a way to learn the maps/how to actually play without getting killed.

Need to bring bots back to fps.

Spectere

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 04:27:44 AM »
The thing I hate about TF 2, is that if you're a spy, EVERYONE shoots at you when you're disguised, its basically useless to go as a spy unless you're cloaked because every person that runs by you, WILL shoot at you, regardless if you're on their team or not.

I haven't seen that happen much.  Regardless, the fact that you can practically insta-kill all enemy defenses and support structures, not to mention instantly kill anyone at your whim with a backstab kind of makes up for it.

Oh, I forgot to mention something -- they fucked up 2fort beyond belief.  The covered bridge isn't a bad addition (even though the snipers are usually too busy shooting at each other to actually worry about people down below, so it's not a huge thing, really) but they destroyed some of the most carefully balanced parts of that map.  For one thing, they managed to make sentries useless for just about every room but the flag room, thanks partly to its reduced range and mostly because they screwed up the ramp room.  The fact that they made the elevator shaft into a stairway ensures scouts an INSANELY easy escape route.  Seriously -- that was one of the things that made playing a class a rocket launcher worth it.  Sure, scouts could conc grenade themselves up and out in classic TF, but the wavering view coupled with their high rate of speed made it harder to flee.

Finally, one of the most fatal flaws in 2fort 2.0 is the flag return path.  Before you'd have to take the enemy flag to the center of the sniper deck to cap it.  If the enemy team was particularly good and missed the flag carrier the first time around, the sniper could cap the carrier and hold the deck.  Usually, at that point, people would conc/rocket jump on the deck and defend the flag -- two meters from the capture point.  That led to some of the most fierce, intense battles on the map.

Enter TF2.  In an attempt to make snipers even less useful than they were in the original, they moved the capture point deep inside of the base.  WHY?  That further ensures that scouts are practically invincible classes.  Thanks to the covered bridge, snipers on the deck get almost no opportunities to cap carriers, even for the slower classes (but especially the scouts -- the only time you could really kill them is with a perfect shot as they're entering the base unless you hop down to ground level, which has its own set of serious disadvantages).  If a scout is carrying, it's literally impossible to kill them when they get in the base unless you have half of your team in the enemy base already.  I can't think of any other way to describe that design change other than "fucking idiotic."  I used to play 2fort4 and 2fort5 a ton -- it seemed like for every QWTF server in existence there were two of them playing 2fort5 24/7 -- but I can't tolerate even playing a round in the new version.

I never was able to get into TF2. It's pretty cool, in my opinion, it's just that I don't have the patience to learn all the little tricks, all the while getting obliterated repeatedly by every other player on the server.

It's really not very well balanced.  As for most classes, there aren't really any other tricks besides brute-force.  For instance, when you play as a Heavy, ask a Medic to stick by you and keep his charge beam on you.  When his Ubercharge fills up, you're invincible.  Even after it runs out, the boosted amount of health that Heavies get from Medics (I think it goes clear up to 450) would make it hard for anything but another Heavy to take you down.  Likewise, when you play as a Medic, stick near a Heavy and keep your beam on him.

When you play as a Scout, just keep running and jumping.  Nobody will be able to come close to catching you, and your double-jump would ensure that you could clear many more obstacles than any other class.  In attack/defend matches, pairing up with another scout and capping points together is enough to win your team the game without anyone even breaking a sweat.  Odds are, fallen enemies won't even be able to respawn in time to protect any of their points (since it takes longer to respawn than it does for your average 90-year-old to get off without popping Viagra).

If you use one of those three classes and do what I said, you'll probably stay alive longer and score more points.  Since the medic's charge beam is ranged, you don't have to worry about "unfair" gameplay elements like splash damage affecting you while you pump up the over-powered Heavies.  Trust me.  I was dying repeatedly and after I started acting like a complete whore the game became easy to the point of stupidity.  The only times I died were when I made the mistake of playing "exotic" classes like the Demoman, Sniper, or...uh, anything that isn't a Scout, Heavy, or Medic.
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MortifiedocAlot

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 04:05:16 PM »
I've played for all of 20 minuets on a friends xbox and thought it was fun. Not like their is anything remotely like it out, plus the fact that you pretty much HAVE to work as a team pleases me. I hate having a team of retarded "rambos" on my team in CSS who never listens to the slightest amount of advice despite loosing every single round. I guess people love running around like dip shits while not giving the bomber any help or cover what so fucking ever.


Spectere

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 11:57:00 PM »
That's my primary complaint, though; you really don't have to work as a team.  In classic TeamFortress, every class was important.  If everyone on your team was effective at a particular class it proved to be advantageous.

In TF2, a medic/heavy combination could win every battle.  Throw a few of those into a fight and you will win it.  The fact that medics have the ability to make themselves and another player completely invulnerable should be more than enough to raise eyebrows.  It's not even that hard to do.  All you have to do is charge the medic beam somewhere safe, latch onto the heavy, and charge in when the battle starts.  By the time the invulnerability wears off, the entire team is waiting a ridiculous amount of time to respawn (sometimes it takes upwards of 20-30 seconds for some stupid reason) and, in the case of attack/defend matches, that's more than enough time for a lone scout to take at least two of the enemy team's points.

Another thing that makes medics less vulnerable to attack is the longer beam.  In TF, the medic healed the target instantly, but was so close that splash damage would severely hurt him, to the point where you could easily take out a medic that was trying to keep a HWGuy alive.

As you can see, an effective TF2 game can be won with only 3-4 players, using three classes.  In TF/TFC, your entire team needed to coordinate assaults and defense using multiple classes.  Each class was uniquely adapted to certain jobs.  For instance, the HWGuy (now simply called the heavy) was exceedingly hard to use for assault due to the long spin-up and slow speed of the character.  In defense, he was hard to take down.  The class that had the best shot at making successful flag runs is the scout due to his fast speed and defensive grenades (not very powerful close range weapons like in TF2...what the fuck were they thinking with that?!) and, in that case, HWGuys could mow them down easily if they had a good position.

Trust me, the game was significantly more team-oriented in its older incarnations.  TF2 hardly requires extensive teamwork.  If anything it requires significantly less than run-and-guns like CSS and R6:Vegas.

Really, the concept has been done in the past (since 1996, you could say) and it was done much better than.  Take a look at games like Fortress Forever, one of the Weapons Factory games, or even TeamFortress Classic or the original Quake TeamFortress to see what a class-based team game should be like.
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MortifiedocAlot

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 01:19:39 AM »
HELL of a bump, but I read this article and thought you might like to see it.

http://insomnia.ac/reviews/pc/teamfortress2/

Really, I do agree with some of his points but I'm still digging TF2. I wish they made it with a competitive scene in mind.


Spectere

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 06:21:52 PM »
Epic bump!

Also: oh my God, I'm not alone!

I tried playing TF2 about a month or two ago and found that none of my complaints really changed.  It's still unbelievably unbalanced, even when you take into account some of the oddities in the first two installments.  I'll admit that I'm kind of a nostalgia freak when it comes to TF1 and TFC, mostly since TF1 was one of the first online multiplayer games that I've played (I love you, QuakeWorld), but even when I take TF2 as its own game (which I did at the beginning; I knew fully well that it wouldn't be exactly like the originals unlike some of the deluded freaks out there) it doesn't stand up well.  It's far more fun (and sometimes even more balanced) when you play on servers with custom configurations.

That said, playing on custom servers only reminds me of how atrocious the balance is.  One server that I used to play on occasionally allowed two sentries per engineer.  Even so, it's not unheard of for a single player (not even a spy) to take out both sentries without sustaining significant damage.  My friend and I had four sentries in the 2fort flag room and a single scout was able to severely damage one of them.  Let's not even get into sentry sapping...ugh.  Can you say "piss-poor implementation?"  I sure as hell can.

Whoops, I seem to be beating a dead horse here.  Oh well.  Carry on!
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MortifiedocAlot

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 06:42:38 PM »
Yeah, it's funny how I can use a spy and sap all 3 of an engineers buildings repeatedly and there's nothing he can really do about it. They need to implement a cool down for sappers, because one engie with 3 buildings can't do much of anything by himself if the spy is smart.


Spectere

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Re: TeamFortress 2 Sucks
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 08:46:16 PM »
Exactly.  Engies have limited use in combat (as they should be!); their sentries should be racking in kills (not being killed, as they are now).

Putting a cooldown (30 seconds would be good -- it would give the enemy team enough time to start hunting you down) on sapping would solve the problem and wouldn't be hard to do.  Really, that's the way spies worked in the original games.  Since you could throw grenades without losing your disguise, my tactic was to always rush near a sentry, toss 3-4 grenades (i.e. pretty much all the frag grenades that you could carry) at it, then repeat.  It took about as much skill as sapping but it was controlled.  If you were good at avoiding enemies on your runs you could destroy one or two sentries every time.  It's not like now where you can run up the sentry, hit the fire button, then rinse and repeat.
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